Is there a better order to watch these movies than how they were released? Is there an order that tells a better story?

On the inaugural episode of Friends From Work over five and a half years ago, Robby asked these questions. Then, over the following eight months, Robby and Kyle would craft a new watch order for the Infinity Saga, not release order and not quite chronological order, either. Rather, the FFW Watch Order prioritized themes and story flow.

Now deep into the Multiverse Saga, as the stories of Marvel’s heroes have only grown more sprawling, complicated, and diverse, it has become even more essential to have a plan for how to watch (or rewatch) the Marvel Cinematic Universe. After 2022’s Black Panther: Wakanda Forever, Robby put forth a Part IV watch order to coincide with the conclusion of Marvel’s Phase Four.

With Phase Five of the MCU drawing to a close over the next two months with the release of Thunderbolts* and Ironheart, it is time once again to start thinking about the best way to structure a watch order so fans who want to embark on a rewatch before Avengers: Doomsday have a roadmap to follow.

Over the next several weeks, Robby and I will discuss our thought process and (hopefully) settle on a tweaked Part IV watch order and a complete Part V watch order. We hope you’ll find this exercise interesting and insightful. Feel free to share your own thoughts with us on Discord.

PART V DISCUSSION

GREG: Hey Robby! It has been a while since we did one of these, but with Marvel's Phase Five coming to an end with next month's Thunderbolts* and Ironheart shortly thereafter, talking through the watch order seems both important to discuss and ideally suited to this format. Longtime fans and listeners will be looking for the official Friends From Work Watch Order as they start planning rewatches ahead of Avengers: Doomsday. As you know, I've already been playing around with some possible orders, but we have not had a chance to collaborate until now. 

First, though, we have a couple of housekeeping items from Phase Four to address. 

1. The initial Phase Four order had viewers moving from Black Panther: Wakanda Forever to Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings to Ms. Marvel, but since then, we've decided to flip those last two titles. Maybe you could explain the reasoning behind that move.

2. The FFW website lists the Special Presentations (The Guardians of the Galaxy Holiday Special and Werewolf by Night) as part of Part IV, but we have decided to pull those out for now and maybe work them back into Part V. Explain your thinking there, too. 

After that, I think we can get down to the business of talking through Phase Five, which will consist of twelve additional titles: Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3, Secret Invasion, Loki Season 2, The Marvels, Echo, Deadpool & Wolverine, Agatha All Along, Captain America: Brave New World, Daredevil: Born Again, Thunderbolts* and Ironheart.

ROBBY: Greg, it has been a while! And this is a great excuse to kick off another discussion. Granted, things might continue to move around as we get through Phase 6 of the MCU. But after a wild couple of years, it seems to me that Captain America: Brave New World marks a return to the somewhat more linear approach of the Infinity Saga. Obviously, we started the podcast by watching through the Infinity Saga in a different order. So it's not as though we're married to a release order or even a Marvel-approved chronology. But with a few exceptions, most of Marvel's Phase 3 movies stayed in what we've called Part III of the FFW Watch Order. (Captain Marvel was moved back to Part I, and Ant-Man was pushed into Part III.) The nice thing here is that we had two tentpole events within the MCU that we could work around — the Avengers' Civil War and the arrival of Thanos. For the most part, we were able to orient the rest of the projects in Part III around those events. That's also why it was so easy to slot Black Widow in Part III even though it's technically a Phase 4 film. All that's to say that I think we can expect Phase 6 to be just as cohesive -- maybe more so since we'll have even less time between the first and final projects in that phase.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. We're here to talk about Part V. And before we can do that, we need to put a bow on Part IV. So let's start with the two points you raised. 

1. Yes, I think there are a few reasons to swap Shang-Chi and Ms. Marvel. As a practical matter, I like to break up movies and shows wherever possible. Rewatching an entire series can feel like a bit of a commitment. And watching two series back-to-back is an easy way to lose momentum -- especially so close to the end of Part IV. More importantly, I think rearranging here creates a cleaner through-line. Ms. Marvel previews Wenwu's Ten Rings organization, which leads to Shang-Chi. Shang-Chi follows up on some thematic elements of Ms. Marvel but also serves as a perfect bridge to She-Hulk. Hearing Carol question the origin of the Ten Rings after we've learned about Kamala's bangle gives us a completely different perspective on both Shang-Chi and Ms. Marvel. But Shang-Chi also reintroduces Bruce Banner, Emil Blonsky/Abomination, and Wong, all three of whom feature prominently in She-Hulk. There's still a case to be made for kicking off the last section of Part IV with Shang-Chi (the official Marvel chronology will say it takes place a good bit earlier than any of these projects anyway), but on balance, I think this is the more satisfying approach.

2. The special presentations have always been difficult when it comes to watch order. The Guardians special obviously takes place at Christmas. But which Christmas? I've still considered placing it after Hawkeye, but it feels a bit odd to squeeze that special in between two relatively grounded projects -- especially with the No Way Home >> Hawkeye >> Wakanda Forever section flowing pretty naturally. Then again, all four of those projects deal with the idea of moving forward after the loss of a loved one. So it's close. But at this point, I'd still lean towards using both Werewolf by Night and Guardians as a Part IV epilogue of sorts. The former echoes the campy horror of our Part IV finale (Multiverse of Madness), and insofar as you consider Werewolf By Night to be a Halloween special, it's a perfect follow-up to Doctor Strange's autumnal adventure. You then go from Halloween to Christmas with the Guardians, which can lead directly into Part V -- which I suspect will open with Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3.

But that's just my current thinking. Do you have any hot takes there?

GREG: Do I have some hot takes? Oh, you bet I do! But first, I want to tell you the things I think we are in lockstep on.

1. Separating the Christmas-themed projects. Moving the Guardians of the Galaxy Holiday Special away from Hawkeye helps the audience experience the passage of multiple years in-universe that have occurred since Avengers: Endgame. It also preserves the flow from No Way Home to Hawkeye to Wakanda Forever, as you mentioned.

2. Pairing the two Guardians projects together. I think this is the proper call. They flow well from one into the other, and any other transition could feel awkward as projects jump between space and Earth. 

Before I get to my hottest take, there is one project I want to talk about for a second— Echo. You just finished explaining the reasons behind moving around projects like Captain Marvel, Ant-Man, and Black Widow, and I think Echo also should be moved- into Part IV of the watch order. It is most closely aligned with Hawkeye (Part IV) and Daredevil: Born Again (Part V) but I would argue that it fits better closer to Hawkeye. Wilson Fisk is the through line across all three projects, and in Echo, he is still suffering from the injuries he endured in the finale of Hawkeye. Moving Echo to Part IV and creating a larger gap before he is seen again in Daredevil feels like a logical fit to me. Do you agree? Somewhere in the vicinity of Ms. Marvel, Shang-chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, and She-Hulk was my thinking.

Time for my first hot take- what do you think about beginning Part V with Agatha All Along? I agree with the need for an epilogue of sorts for Part IV, but what better project to do that with than Agatha? Unlike a lot of the Phase 5 projects that have potentially clear connections (multiversal, street-level, or space) Agatha is a bit of an outlier. But it does have very direct connections to the whole of Part IV, which both begins and ends with the Scarlet Witch. Agatha All Along could be a fun way to kick off Part V, but also close the book on Part IV. Then I think you could move into Werewolf By Night which has the aforementioned connection to Multiverse of Madness’s tone but also a loose comic connection to Agatha through the character of Jennifer Kale.

So what do you think? Am I onto something or do you feel strongly about kicking off Part V with a trip back to Knowhere?

 ROBBY: Ok, ok I like it!

First, I really like this Echo placement, and it's not just because of the connection to Hawkeye. If you place it towards the end of Part IV, you also get connections to She-Hulk (Daredevil) and Shang-Chi (Maya's dad's comment about dragons living in another dimension). I also like the idea of Fisk's story being wrapped up by the end of Part IV. The whole DD/Fisk thread felt up in the air for a few years, but I like the idea of grounding it in the MCU earlier in the watch order. In an ideal world, you could turn some scattered cameos into something more like a through-line. Thinking about the exact placement, I can see good arguments for a few spots. On the one hand, I like the idea of placing Echo immediately after Hawkeye. Watch No Way Home then Hawkeye then Echo, and you've got a mini DD/Fisk trilogy. It reintroduces audiences to Matt Murdock (albeit briefly), followed by Fisk, and then concludes with a chance to see Fisk and DD (again very briefly) operating in more familiar territory. I also think Echo serves as a nice thematic bridge between Hawkeye and Wakanda Forever, and it fits in with the other three projects in that section as another in which our protagonist deals with the loss of the person closest to them.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how I feel about having She-Hulk after Echo. Would it be better to pair NWH and Hawkeye and then pair She-Hulk and Echo towards the end of Part IV? I think Echo's credits scene is a better note to end on. Going from that back to She-Hulk's Daredevil may feel like a step in the wrong direction tonally. But then you're looking at Echo as the project leading into Multiverse of Madness, and that doesn't feel quite right. It would also break up the wonderful Wong trilogy we already have beginning with Shang-Chi.  And yes, it could also go between Wakanda Forever and Ms. Marvel. There is some connective tissue there. But I think it's probably the weakest of the three. I think I'm leaning towards NWH-Hawkeye-Echo, though I could be convinced otherwise! 

You also raise some good questions about Agatha All Along. Part IV was originally structured with WandaVision and Multiverse of Madness as the bookends and Loki S1 + NWH serving as a midpoint. The goal is to really orient everything around those core multiversal moments. So Agatha's placement is tricky. It could serve as a good follow-up to MoM. We do deal (kind of) with the fallout of Wanda's actions there. And we definitely deal with the fallout of WandaVision. But I don't think I want to end Part IV there per se. It doesn't leave you with the sense of urgency you get by ending with MoM. So yeah, maybe we can open Part V with it. But then I'm not sure it's the right note to start on for Part V, which veers much more sci-fi than fantasy. I would say throw it between Part IV and V as a sort of epilogue/prologue, but that feels like a cop-out. I think you can sell that with these one-off Special Presentations, which are each about the length of a TV episode. But a whole season is something different. So then maybe it gets pushed somewhere else in Part V? Maybe we start to see something build between Young Avengers -- Billy, Cassie, Kate, and Kamala? But does that actually work better in something closer to the release order? Assuming we won't get any big updates on that front in Thunderbolts*, would it be better to leave off with Billy's search for Tommy? I also think a lot of this may depend on where Vision sits. If we went with your proposal, there's a world where we start Part IV, V, and VI with Jac Schaeffer Wanda/Vision shows. But I'm not sure that Agatha or Vision will feel quite as central as WandaVision, so it's hard for me to say whether that would feel appropriate or forced — at least until we've made it through the rest of Part V. 

GREG: Robby, I think we are starting to get somewhere. I am glad we are in agreement on Echo and you’ve convinced me that you are absolutely correct in your initial thought to place it directly after Hawkeye. The allure of a Matt Murdoch/Wilson Fisk mini-trilogy is too enticing to pass up, and I agree that it bridges well into Wakanda Forever. So I think we can say that we have settled on a new Part IV watch order, at least for the moment.

PART IV

1. WandaVision

2. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

3. Spider-Man: Far From Home

4. Eternals

5. Moon Knight

6. Thor: Love and Thunder

7. Loki: Season 1

8. Spider-Man No Way Home

9. Hawkeye

10. Echo

11. Black Panther: Wakanda Forever

12. Ms. Marvel

13. Shang-chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings

14. She-Hulk

15. Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness

With that settled, we can get back to the business of working on Part V. I think your concerns about placing Agatha All Along at the beginning of Part V are valid, and I think maybe we should table that project for now. That leaves us with ten additional projects to discuss (also removing the specials for now) and I think they fall into a handful of fairly distinct groups.

Multiversal: Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania, Loki Season 2, and Deadpool & Wolverine

Cosmic/Aliens: Secret Invasion, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3, The Marvels

Ground-level: Captain America: Brave New World, Daredevil: Born Again, Thunderbolts*, and Ironheart (sidenote- could Ironheart introduce a magical element that helps connect it to Agatha?)

Would you agree with those groupings? If you look closely, I think there is also some connective tissue between some of those projects that could help transition between those groups (for example: The Marvels and DP&W). You said before that you favored starting Part V with GOTG V3. Why don’t you take me through the thought process there and share the first arc of your Part V order, also?

TO BE CONTINUED