Reply All: FFW Watch Order Interlude

It has been a little over a month since the last installment in this series from Robby and me. Ironheart is in the rearview mirror (check out my review here and the podcast for Robby’s thoughts). The Fantastic Four: First Steps will officially kick off Phase Six in a matter of days.

Robby and I had hoped to have another full installment ready to go, but work (he’s a very good lawyer!) and a busy month of travel for me have made that harder than anticipated. That doesn’t mean we haven’t been working behind the scenes, though.

So, please enjoy some of our miscellaneous thoughts on the watch order and the specific projects that are tripping us up the most right now.

Should the two seasons of Loki be featured back-to-back in the watch order?

GREG: Last time we talked, you suggested putting seasons 1 and 2 of Loki together, and I think I’ve come around to the idea. With the shift away from Kang the Conqueror as the saga’s “big bad” to Doctor Doom, expediting Jonathan Majors’ exit from the Watch Order makes logical sense. As you explained, watching both seasons helps establish all of the rules that (we think) we know about how the multiverse works. Additionally, I have been advocating for Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania to come after after season 2 of Loki, and combining the two seasons would lock that into place.

Where does Ironheart fit in the watch order?

GREG: Despite being the final released project of Phase Five, chronologically Ironheart takes place approximately six months after Black Panther: Wakanda Forever. Much like the discussion we had about Echo in our first installement of this series, I think ultimately this show will fit better in Part IV of our order. There is a string of projects in Part IV focused on new heroes emerging (Kate Bishop/Hawkeye, Kamala Khan/Ms. Marvel, Shang-Chi, and Jennifer Walters/She-Hulk), and Riri Williams/Ironheart would seem to fit best in that mix.

Should there be a streamlined watch order?

ROBBY: I think ultimately there should be a streamlined Multiverse Saga watch order that drops the non-essential projects (assuming there are non-essential projects) and let that be more akin to our original Infinity Saga Watch Order.

For example, it seems to me that Daredevil: Born Again will likely not intersect with what the Russo Brothers are doing with Avengers: Doomsday and Avengers: Secret Wars. So while it's one of my favorite projects to date, I'm not sure it will be paid off in Doomsday or Secret Wars the same way that even the most disconnected projects of the Infinity Saga were in Endgame.

GREG: I think you are right- a streamlined order is going to be a necessity. Just this past weekend, I read an article that mentioned how the Multiverse Saga has already produced over 100 total hours of content, which is nearly double the content of the entire Infinity Saga. And I do think there will be some non-essential projects (Moon Knight, Agatha All Along, and Werewolf By Night come to mind).

That being said, I also think the overall watch order is still important to many fans who view the volume more as a feature than a bug. The world of the MCU has expanded significantly, and spending a lot of time building out that world may be time-consuming, but if the payoff is there, it will ultimately prove worth it for folks.

How hard is it to build a Watch Order before you know how the saga ends?

ROBBY: I think that is the big one for me -- and why it's proving challenging to structure everything.

GREG: It is a huge challenge. I think I know a lot more about the rumors and the behind-the-scenes of Doomsday than you do right now, but the release dates for that and Secret Wars are still so far away that just about anything could (and probably will) change.

ROBBY: Oh, definitely, and I'm happy to stay ignorant on the rumor mill (if only because knowing too much will make it hard for me to discuss things on the podcast without inadvertently spoiling).

I'm still trying to figure out the thematic threads across all three parts of this saga. Do we want Part IV to be just one giant set of introductions? Or do we want to try and lay out a full narrative (or narratives) there? For instance, what role is Shang-Chi going to play in our finale? Is there any reason to have Shang-Chi and She-Hulk both in Part IV? Any reason not to? What about Spider-Man? Should we think of Spider-Man: Brand New Day as starting a new trilogy or bridging the gap between No Way Home and Doomsday, or both? Does that impact No Way Home at all? Do we want to increase or decrease the amount of time between those projects? Should we think of Monica as already being in the X-universe when Deadpool & Wolverine begins? Or would it be better to flip those so that we're already invested in that universe before Monica gets dropped into it? Or is that not an important thread anyway, so we can use other criteria for structuring?

GREG: I think those are all great questions. For now, I do like the way Part IV is structured. Maintaining at least a loose link to the chronological timeline of events feels important- one of the only consistent things we have to guide the sprawling narrative since Endgame.

To answer one of your questions, Brand New Day feels like the start of a new trilogy- I mean, it’s right in the title, yeah? So I think the long gap that is likely to exist between NWH and BND is warranted.

Can you tell me more about your thinking around potentially placing Deadpool & Wolverine before The Marvels?

ROBBY: For one thing, it feels so weird to me to have the Far From Home PCS featuring lighthearted, non-bearded Fury followed by his next appearance in Secret Invasion with grizzled, bearded Fury, and then back to The Marvels where he’s exactly the same as he was in Far From Home.

I’d almost rather think of his state in Secret Invasion as being informed in part by the loss of Monica, which would also lend further weight to the loss of Maria Hill in that series.

Fury doesn’t actually do much to save the day in The Marvels. He’s essentially just there to watch the heroes do their thing. And you can imagine that sense of impotence boiling over into his “I’ll do it myself” approach in Secret Invasion.

Another thing that confused me a little was when Deadpool & Wolverine didn't follow up in any way on The Marvels’ PCS. It seemed like such a natural thing to do. So, while having The Marvels first does make sense for a few reasons, I am concerned that it sets up a road sign to nowhere.

I have to believe it will be followed up on in Doomsday or Secret Wars. So if you start with Deadpool & Wolverine, then you (1) introduce that universe through the lens of the TVA, (2) establish that it is an existing universe as we end DP&W, and (3) then show that Monica is now in that universe, which hopefully points directly ahead to Doomsday.

Again, it's not perfect. The Marvels’ PCS does establish an X-Men connection, and it certainly lends itself more to a (FO)X-verse watch. But because the former doesn't particularly work for me as connective tissue there, I think I would rather give it more weight as a potential Doomsday tease.

Still, I'm not entirely convinced about flipping those two projects. I am more trying to think it through from the perspective of the clearest ongoing narrative.

No matter which order we land on between The Marvels and Deadpool & Wolverine, I do think Deadpool & Wolverine could serve as the midpoint of Part V as a counterpart to Loki at the midpoint of Part IV (assuming we do end up placing both seasons together).

GREG: I should have known you’d have an excellent explanation ready. It is hard to argue with your Nick Fury takes. There is one thing that I keep getting hung up on. Is there any concrete evidence that Monica Rambeau is in the same universe as the events of Deadpool and Wolverine? I know that is the prevailing assumption, but if someone is watching for the first time (with no knowledge of the FOX universe), would they be able to make that connection?

Unfortunately, The Marvels is boxed in by Ms. Marvel, meaning that it has to take place after that show for continuity purposes. Otherwise, I think you could make a strong argument for placing it much earlier in the watch order, closer to WandaVision and Spider-Man: Far From Home.

Sometimes, the fluidity of the Multiverse Saga is both a blessing and a curse.

Will the official FFW Watch Order include optional detours to include the Sony Spider-Man or FOX X-Men films?

ROBBY: I have no idea how you would even structure a (FO)X-verse watch in a way that makes any sense. There is no indication that the X-Men, Daredevil, Fantastic Four, and Blade movies are supposed to share a universe, despite characters from all of them appearing in Deadpool & Wolverine.

Even if we focus on the X-Men universe, it could be confusing because Deadpool & Wolverine clearly references the original trilogy, the Deadpool films, and Logan. But it's not entirely clear how those projects are supposed to interact. Do you watch that original trilogy plus X-Men: First Class and X-Men: Days of Future Past (similar to our watch on FFW+), and then Deadpool and Deadpool 2, finishing with Logan?

If you don't, then the beginning of DP&W doesn't exactly make sense. If you do, then it's unclear why Patrick Stewart (and the rest of the X-Men, for that matter) would be around in Doomsday. I think the question is whether it will ultimately add or subtract from the MCU watch experience.

It is a little simpler with Spider-Man. You can simply march through the Raimi and Webb films (say, after Loki). It's a lot messier with the FOX films, and I'm loath to give that aspect much weight. However, I know that A LOT of folks will probably disagree with me.

GREG: I know for many of us, what we are discussing here is a rewatch order. But I’m also trying to see it through the eyes of a first-time viewer. Specifically, I am thinking of my youngest daughter. By the time Secret Wars rolls around, she will be nearing the age where we can start our MCU journey together. Not that long ago, I was in her shoes as it relates to the Sony and FOX movies- I had not seen most of them.

And I know for me, the rewatch journeys on FFW+ through those universes significantly elevated my experiences with both Spider-Man: No Way Home and Deadpool & Wolverine, and I want her to have a similar experience. Do I think the X-Men watch needs to be as thorough? No. But I do believe a baseline understanding of that universe and the essential movies would be beneficial. So yes- I would appreciate having a suggested order for those movies, too. Even if gets messy. Maybe we can dig more into that after we’ve finalized Part V, hopefully soon!

I hope you’ve enjoyed these musings on the watch order. Robby and I plan on being back with another installment in this series sooner rather than later.

Thanks for reading,

Robby & Greg